Rabies Vaccination for Dogs Part 14

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Rabies Vaccination for Dogs – AB 272

Dog Getting Vaccinated

Ouch!

Follow-up questions for Dr. Dodds

Is there a correlation between puppies that have had adverse vaccine reactions and development of the medical and/or behavioral issues that were listed in the questionnaire?

Dr. Dodds – If you mean : did the vaccine adverse event because the medical and behavioral issues listed – the answer is Yes, for most cases.  Is there data showing this correlation?  Only the close temporal relationship of the vaccination in an animal that was healthy beforehand. Is the causative factor determined by a process of elimination?  Basically, Yes.
I don’t understand how there can be partial immunity protection — do you mean that there is protection for some of the diseases in a multivalent vaccine No or if we give a vaccine at 6 weeks instead 14 weeks, that the puppy is protected from, say, 10% of the disease, Yes or that if he should contract the disease, that it would not be as severe? Depends upon the degree of partial protection elicited at that young age. In theory, the disease, if contracted would be less severe.  
What is the detox procedure for vaccinosis?  Is it administration of Thuja (for all vaccines plus Lyssni for rabies only) and/or then treating whatever symptoms the puppy experiences?  Yes, oral homeopathics for vaccinosis plus symptomatic care.   Would the puppy be treated with homeopathic remedies or antibiotics or both?  Depends upon the case; antibiotics are usually not required. If you treat with Thuja, does that alleviate the side effects Yes, it should or does it negate the immunity? Not at all.  

Follow-up questions for Dr. Breitman

Is there a correlation between puppies that have had adverse vaccine reactions and development of the medical and/or behavioral issues that were listed in the questionnaire?

Dr. Breitman – The only correlation that I know of between adverse vaccine reactions and other issues would be a vaccine sensitivity or failure due to genetic non-responsiveness.  

To my knowledge — and please correct me if I’m wrong — vaccines other than rabies are given according to the weight of the animal.  If vaccines containing Thimerosal are safe and all dogs are required by law required to have the same amount of the vaccine, would a small dog who receives vaccines containing mercury be at greater risk as he ages?

Dr. Breitman – Vaccines are not given according to the weight of the animal.  A minimum effective dose is given which unlike medications that need to reach certain blood levels, are not given on the basis of size.

“Thimerosal is a preservative. Preservatives (such as thimerosal) are required to be used when certain vaccines are prepared in vials that hold more than one dose. Thimerosal prevents accidental contamination with bacteria or fungi that might occur when syringes repeatedly puncture the vials to withdraw a dose.

According to the FDA website http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/questionsaboutvaccines/ucm070430.htm, “During the past ten years, FDA has provided informal and formal advice to manufacturers recommending that new vaccines under development be formulated without thimerosal as a preservative.”  If this is true for humans, does it follow that it is true for dogs?

Dr. Breitman – Studies have shown that there is no known harm from thimerosal preservative-containing vaccines. In 1999, FDA conducted a review of thimerosal in childhood vaccines and found no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, other than a reaction at the injection site. The Institute of Medicine’s Immunization Safety Review Committee reached a similar conclusion in 2001, based on a review of available data, and again in 2004, after reviewing studies performed after its 2001 report. Since then, additional studies have been published confirming these findings though there was no evidence that thimerosal in vaccines was dangerous, the decision to remove it was a made as a precautionary measure to decrease overall exposure to mercury among young infants. This decision was possible because childhood vaccines could be reformulated to leave out thimerosal without threatening their safety,  effectiveness, and purity. “- from the FDA site.

I am just asking for information here and not trying to be disrespectful in any way — since there is little funding for alternative therapy veterinary medicine, many of the cases are anecdotal and show a pattern of outcomes through the veterinarians’ collective practices.  Have you actually witnessed or followed first hand (not in the literature) the cases of the dogs treated by alternative therapies to see their outcomes?  The reason I ask this question is because my vet was an allopathic vet who went to visit a homeopathic vet to discredit him and his findings but discovered that the homeopathic vet was helping animals that he could not.

There is a local homeopathic vet that I have had extensive conversations with, though I have not spent time in her practice following cases.  For the most part, her stories are anectdotal; though, I do believe that her use of fecal transplantation is likely effective in some cases (as has been proven in human medicine).  At risk of having you ask me to provide you with a literature search on the subject, I would disagree that there is no evidence in the literature on homeopathic methods.  There are publications, though one needs to be critical in assessing the methods and controls (as in all published literature).  The paucity of positive results is a testament to the lack of superior treatments.  While many homeopathic methods do work, possibly through the placebo effect (which is real) or the pharmacological properties of “natural products”, these methods have not shown better results than traditional treatments.  Where plants that contain active ingredients are used, there is usually a comparable product that has been standardized that is at least as effective and because it is standardized carries less risk of overdose or lack of effectiveness.  Anecdotally, I have seen patients that have come to me from this vet that she could not help but improved with my care.  Not a scientific study, and one needs to keep in mind that many patients get better on their own.  I do support the use of homeopathic methods in my patients where I am reasonably certain that they will do no harm (when requested), but have not been swayed by the results.  I take seriously my responsibility to help the patient and avoid harming the patient. Although homeopathic methods are often a “feel good” option for the client (owner), I put the patient as my first priority.

If you get a virus and it keeps sucking the life out of new cells to replicate, how does it ultimately end?  Is it preprogrammed to stop at, say, 1 million cells?  Does it replicate until there’s no new cells left and the host dies?  Does it depend on the virus?

Dr. Breitman – Since a virus lives inside cells and bacteria lives outside cells, can you vaccinate against bacteria?

Viruses don’t always kill the cells in which they live.  They can replicate until they run out of host cells or the immune response neutralizes them.  Or they can remain dormant in a host cell until that section of nucleotides is replicated.  Certain bacteria (and other types of pathogenic organisms) can live inside cells as well.

 Vaccination stimulates either humoral immunity (antibody production) or cell mediated immunity (killer cells, etc.).  Both viruses and bacteria travel outside of cells to become the target of antibodies and agglutination or antibody mediated killing by immune cells.  Cells infected usually end up with pathogen specific antigen on their surfaces that become targets for the immune system.  If a pathogen is hiding inside a cell without exhibiting these antigens on the cell surface, they are effectively hidden from the immune system.

[End of questions to Dr. Breitman and Dr. Dodds]

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Disclaimers – this is a *very* long article (almost 17,000 words) which I have loosely broken up into segments. This is the unedited final draft of the article in its entirety that I wrote in 2013 for a website that is no longer in existence. Not only is the final article no longer available, but I have had computer and Internet issues where some data may have been lost. I have spent several hours trying to piece it together and reformatting.

The article does not reflect current research as of 2018.  However, a good portion of the discussion is still applicable. If there is something that you believe was not true in 2013 or if I have made a mistake in reformatting, please let me know and I will do my best to fix it.

The reason it is posted here is because I was hosting a discussion on DogRead DogRead@yahoogroups.com about my book Doggie Dangers ( Kindle http://tinyurl.com/y8uc4gtc  Paperback http://tinyurl.com/y7vhce9t ), and the subject of rabies vaccines came up when we were talking about wildlife concerns for family dogs. We were discussing how to keep the yard safe from wildlife, but one person mentioned she had a bat fly into her house! Some of the participants requested that I post the article since it is no longer published.

And the final disclaimer – I am a dog trainer, not a veterinarian or medical researcher. Therefore, this article is for information only and not a substitute for any veterinary, medical, or other advice.

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